Christocentric

16 Responses to “Can you be a Christian AND a homosexual?”

1. gcmwatch
   September 16th 2009 on 9:53 am

   Dear God, everytime I listen to these videos, the more vomit comes out. And I am completely disgusted with Lexi. Despite what she says at the end, which is two faced and lukewarm, she agreed with him one time too many.

   She is no journalist.

   
   
2. Carlotta
   Twitter: christocentric
   
   September 16th 2009 on 10:14 am

   You know, when I listened to the videos again I definitely have changed my mind on the quality of journalism – from a Christian point of view! She did seem to agree with Tonex on a few of those points – points that should have been vehemently exposed instead of agreed upon! Well, I thought this brother did a pretty decent job on the video taking each point and exposing the faulty theology behind Tonex’s justification.

   I just hope you recover from the sickness of these videos quickly!

   
   
3. Renee'
   September 16th 2009 on 10:55 am

   I does appear to me also that a lot of “agreeing” was going on from Lexi instead of correcting Tonex about some of the “nonsense” that was coming out of his mouth.

   I too am disappointed in Lexi. It seems a lot of sensationalism is going on instead of a Lexi representing Christ on The Lexi Show.

   
   
4. Carlotta
   Twitter: christocentric
   
   September 16th 2009 on 11:03 am

   Agreed Renee’!

   Are you the same Renee’ that backed me up on gospelpundit? If so, thank you! Glad to know someone else could see what was going on with that discussion!

   If not, nevermind what I said…

   
   
5. gcmwatch
   September 16th 2009 on 2:46 pm

   Carlotta I read through the comments there. Did you notice EJ’s gushing interview with Tonex where he called his point of view “refreshing candid”. What’s so refreshing about saying sin is ok?

   The Lord is showing whose are his and those who are running cover for the fans and friends.

   
   
6. Carlotta
   Twitter: christocentric
   
   September 16th 2009 on 2:56 pm

   Yes, I’ve been having it out with EJ on that board, but we’ve come to an agreement that neither of us support the name calling against Tonex. I just left it at that I’m finished there unless someone adds something that will get me going again!

   The conclusion of it all is that public harsh rebuke is necessary for unrepentant, defiant professing Christians, and that is completely applicable to Tonex’s case. But to handle him with godly rebuke – and all the name calling I’ve seen on Twitter and other forums is not what we consider godly at all. But the rebuke has to be done because Tonex brought it to the public!

   “Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear.” 1 Timothy 5:20

   
   
7. Renee'
   September 17th 2009 on 9:51 am

   Yes I am the same Renee’ that backed you up on gospelpundit. I agree with each of your comments on the subject.

   It saddens me that so many people are tiptoeing around about the nonsense that Tonex is so convinced of in his mind and boldly proclaiming on The Word Network I might add. God only knows what he is telling his congregation.

   Yet they crucify Deitrick for the word he used. Actually I don’t think that he was even saying it directly towards Tonex. (I didn’t go read his twitter). I just saw the comment that EJ put at the beginning of the blog ““All Gospel singers are not Gay as I don’t have a sissy bone in my body.”

   I’m not bashing Tonex. I actually tried to give him a chance when I was first introduced to his music by my brother even though I thought Tonex was kinda crossing the line. I was with him until “Out the Box” . Now I can’t support him.

   Now I’m scared for Tonex. Reprobate mind is what I witnessed watching the interview.

   
   
8. Carlotta
   Twitter: christocentric
   
   September 17th 2009 on 10:14 am

   I’m with you too on being “scared” for Tonex. A reprobate mind is serious business and very dangerous for the soul. What makes it tougher on Tonex is that he’s now deeply involved with the reprobate “Hollywood” crowd. These are the folks that can call themselves Christians and believe they can participate in any sin any time all day long! And as long as these people are building Tonex up, comforting him, pleasing him and the like, it will become harder and harder for him to turn to the real truth of our Lord.

   Many of the folks were driving me crazy on gospelpundit but at the same time, I was so happy to see other like-minded Christians such as yourself and a few others who stood up to EJ and let him know how he was too busy fussing about Deitrick Haddon’s “sissy” comment and spending too little time on Tonex’s abomination!

   And the Lexi interview I really didn’t mind it at all. She did the Christian world a great service in allowing Tonex to be exposed as he was. We NEEDED to know what he was teaching, doing, and etc as a public figure and pastor! Now if Lexi used this opportunity to just hold Tonex’s hand instead of rebuke him then yes, on her part it would have been a wasted opportunity for someone’s soul. If her interest was more in building her TV opportunities instead of heavenly ones, then yes she was definitely on the wrong track!

   I’m so ready for this Tonex mess to end! But oh the beauty if it were to end with Tonex forsaking that lifestyle and coming truly to the Lord!

   
   
9. Renee'
   September 17th 2009 on 11:00 am

   Now that would be just beautiful.

   If he could see this thing through God’s eyes, realizing that God is grieved.

   I’m here in Atlanta and yes there are people that appear to be gay in my church even well known gospel singers, but they can never say that they don’t hear the unadulterated Truth about sin (ALL SINS) . Conviction will draw you or drive you away.

   I’m so glad that I found your site. I’ve seen your comments on topics on gospelpundit, but I never knew you had a site. Continue to speak the truth.

   
   
10. Carlotta
    Twitter: christocentric
    
    September 17th 2009 on 11:09 am

    Thanks Renee! Encouraging words like the ones you shared gives me more motivation to keep doing just that – speaking the truth!

    Gospelpundit wasn’t setup for us to share our sites, which is why I used Christocentric instead. They require approval if you use links which is bothersome.

    But glad you were able to find me as I have enjoyed your comments! Let me know if you ever get your own blog!

    
    
11. Job
    September 19th 2009 on 9:28 am

    Carlotta:

    Thank you for this difficult question. I will try my best to answer.

    Is it possible to commit homosexual sin and still be a Christian? Now there are those who proclaim homosexuality to be one of those sins that are unique and particular abominations before God and evidence of a depraved and therefore unredeemed nature. Such people have a good amount of Bible evidence on their side, which I will not recount. However, I have always wondered how much of that is due to culture and strict, honest theology. After all, the Bible dedicates FAR MORE time to things like gossiping, lying, coveting and anger than it does homosexuality, and as a matter of fact deals far more with heterosexual sin than with homosexuality. So while many people claim that the mere presence of homosexual urges, let alone falling and acting on them, is evidence of an unregenerate person (a view that is easy to take because of the revolting nature of the behavior), I can come up with no reason why 1 John 1:8-10 “If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us” does not apply to the penitent confessor of the gospel of Jesus Christ that is struggling with homosexual sin any less than it does anyone else. As a matter of fact, from what I have heard from Christians who have come out of that lifestyle, such people are particularly in need of God’s grace, and including constantly knowing and being reassured by other Christians what “grace” actually means. Or at the very least we can say this: 1 John 1:8-10 applies to the one struggling – and at times failing – to resist homosexuality every bit as much as it does to the Christians that are gossiping about that person’s behavior! How ironic, then that because of our culture, the person who is struggling and fighting to resist falling into homosexuality is often more acutely aware of his sin nature, the body of sinful death that is within his flesh (Romans 7, more on that later) and need for grace and repentance and forgiveness than the person who is a frequent gossip and talebearer who has no idea that he is even committing these sins at all! Now as to Romans 7, there is this debate that has been going on since the early days of Christianity whether Romans 7 describes the plight of an unsaved person or the battle of a saved one. Well, I am mystified by that debate as I declare Romans 7 to clearly be in reference to the spiritual warfare of saved people, and I am 100% certain that not a few people who have been saved by Jesus Christ out of homosexuality would agree.

    But that is part one of my answer. Part two of my answer is whether a person can take upon himself the IDENTITY (a useful term in our age of identity politics) of a homosexual and be saved. Even that is not as clear as it seems, because it is apparent that it is possible for a Christian to be deluded as to the nature of his sin at least for a time, and apparently – if some rather stern words from Paul are to be applied – actually need to be “delivered unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh and the preservation of the soul.” (Those passages by Paul have real problems for the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints, which Paul otherwise consistently espouses!) But what happens with a Christian is that the Holy Spirit will convict him of unrighteousness, and if that person is legitimately owned by God, sealed by the Holy Spirit, and given over to Jesus Christ by God the Father, then even though this Christian may grieve and even quench the Holy Spirit, eventually the Holy Spirit will prevail. But apart from those considerations, no, it is impossible for a Christian to have the IDENTITY of a homosexual. The reason is that in order to be a Christian, one must be saved, and in order to be saved, one must experience true Biblical repentance.

    That is the rub, a false modern definition of repentance, and that is precisely what allows the homosexual “Christian” movement to flourish. The modern definition of repentance is simply being sorry for sin (or for the consequences of sin!), what is frequently referred to as “brokenness” or “Godly sorrow.” Now it may be that such a sincere deep sorrow over one’s sin is necessary. (Or it actually may not be … some insist that one is capable of arriving to this stage by the use of one’s rational intellect.) Now what has been going on in Christianity for some time now is that some evangelists use or exploit the emotional anguish, guilt, fear etc. associated with convicting people of their sin and then immediately move right to the confession of faith or the salvation prayer. And that is a very effective way of getting a person to say the prayer, confess the faith, be baptized, join a church etc. because of the powerful emotions involved.

    But despite its effectiveness, it has resulted in it being embedded in the church consciousness that repentance is primarily – or only – being sorry, being really truly deeply sorry for your sins! And that leads to the next step: a person whether he be homosexual or anyone else saying “well, I am sorry for my sins, I really can’t give them up, but hey, no one is perfect, and God didn’t come to save perfect people but sinners, so I will be saved based on being sorry for my sins and confessing Jesus Christ as Savior on judgment day.” That is the basic thrust of conservative or moderate gay theology right there: being homosexual is unable to attain God’s best (as Joel Osteen put it) or God’s standard. (This is in contrast with the more liberal and radical gay theologians who claim that not only is there nothing wrong with homosexuality, but that homosexuality is part of God’s plan, and that the Bible can easily and plainly be interpreted to show it.) So, this false repentance theology allows the homosexual to be “sorry” about being homosexual, then merely add his homosexuality to another laundry list of sins that all Christians have (a perversion of the intent of 1 John 1:8-10 ironically) and continue their willful rejection of God’s commandments. So I suppose it can be said that the growth in the acceptance of gay theology is actually due to the bad doctrines and practices that have gotten into the church because of flawed or incomplete evangelistic methods that deny Biblical repentance.

    But while Biblical repentance may require a true sincere sorrow over sin (but seriously, it honestly may not, as there is no evidence that the Ethiopian eunuch experienced such sorrow, nor is there evidence that the more rationally oriented philosophers that Paul successfully evangelized at Mars Hill i.e. Dionysius and Damaris did either), what it also requires – or more truthfully what repentance actually means – is turning away from sin. It means to reject, renounce, disown, hate etc. sin, both specific sinful lifestyles and actions (i.e. homosexuality and gossip) and all sin in general. So, the attempts of the homosexual to reinterpret the Bible to justify their behavior is by definition wrong. So is the “well I know that it is a sin but no one is perfect, everyone sins so I will be saved by God’s grace” approach.

    Bottom line: the person who accepts or embraces being homosexual cannot be Christian (again unless this is a person who is for a time deluded and is in the process rejecting the Holy Spirit’s work to drive him to repentance and restore him). But the person who has genuinely achieved Biblical repentance over homosexuality can be even if he still struggles – indeed struggles greatly – in that area. And incidentally, the same goes for any other sin.

    That is, at least, how I interpret scripture. I acknowledge that my interpretation is problematic. For instance, how can the person who has reached Biblical repentance concerning but still struggles with MURDER can still be considered a Christian? And yes, it is incontrovertible that the Bible reserves murder as a unique category (see the Noah and the flood narrative, including preamble – where violence is a primary motive for God’s sending the flood – and the conclusion, the Noahic covenant where God declares murder to be a capital crime). Still, as flawed as my thinking is on this issue may be at present, it is the best that I am capable of achieving at present, and I welcome anyone more experienced and knowledgeable than myself to instruct me concerning my errors.

    Thank you.

    
    
12. Carlotta
    Twitter: christocentric
    
    September 19th 2009 on 3:39 pm

    Forgive me Job for not approving this earlier. In the middle of blog maintenance and I didn’t even check the blog during this time!

    Anyways, thank you very much for your answer to the post title question. I completely agree with you as I truly believe that those who have turned from sin and to Christ will no longer even desire to be identified as “gay” because they hate the sin. I have a huge problem with 2 categories of those who practice homosexual sin and you covered both: the unrepentant homosexual who’s trying to claim the grace of Jesus Christ and the one who says he’s struggling, but clinging on to the title of “gay” or “homosexual.” By their very desire of clinging on to the identity they are showing a desire to maintain that lifestyle, something like Lot’s wife who turned to salt because she looked back longing for that lifestyle.

    Thank you for your eloquent explanation!

    
    
13. Job
    September 20th 2009 on 2:42 am

    Carlotta:

    “Remember Lot’s wife.” Luke 17:32. And the context of that is amazing!

    “In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back. Remember Lot’s wife. Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.”

    It is VERY POSSIBLE to apply that text to the sinner who is looking BACK to the “old man” (and to the world) instead of looking FORWARD to the cross. At the very least, it is straddling the fence, trying to have a foot in both camps, and the person who does that runs the risk of violating the very stern warnings in the epistle to the Hebrews.

    But yes, your mention of Lot’s wife was excellent, both in general theological terms, but also directly because Lot’s wife was, after all, looking back to Sodom …

    
    
14. Carlotta
    September 20th 2009 on 5:09 am

    Excellent recall of that scripture! Sent shivers through me as I read it…I was more “on it” than I realized!

    But that’s my new phrase as it relates to Tonex or anyone else justifying their sin while calling themselves “in Christ” – Remember Lot’s wife!

    
    
15. sunshine7
    July 21st 2010 on 7:55 am

    I can’t agree more with both you Carlotta and Job. Outstanding analysis Job. Simply outstanding!

    
    
16. Dan Trabue
    August 7th 2010 on 2:45 pm

    Sorry I’m late to this dance, but I had a question. Where you say…

    But people who practice homosexuality with NO repentance and even trying to use the scriptures to justify their abominable acts are clearly NOT CHRISTIANS! They are defiant and of a reprobate mind.

    In reviewing your description of how to be saved, I mostly agree (I’d certainly add, “believe in the LIFE and TEACHINGS of Jesus, along with his death and resurrection, but perhaps you meant that…). So, we agree upon that part.

    But then it seems to me that you’re adding an additional works-based hoop through which to jump. You seem to be saying that one has to admit they’re a sinner, ask forgiveness, make Jesus Lord of their life AND AGREE with the traditional church teaching on issues surrounding homosexuality. Perhaps that’s not what you’re saying, but it’s what it sounds like you’re saying.

    Could you clarify?

    The reason I ask is that I know plenty of Christians in the traditional sense (myself included) who have been saved by God’s grace through faith in Jesus, the Christ who sincerely desire to walk in Jesus’ steps, according to Scripture, and who take the Bible very seriously as God’s revelation to us.

    We’ve studied the scripture and come to a different conclusion than you have on this one particular “sin” (what you consider a sin, which I don’t).

    Do you think a person has to be “right” on every sin (ie, have perfect knowledge of all possible right and wrong actions in their life) in order to be saved, too? That would seem to be a pretty tall order. It is my belief, and my church’s belief, that God’s grace covers our misunderstandings. That someone can be sincerely mistaken about an action and still be saved, albeit wrong about that action.

    You’re not saying that a person has to have perfect knowledge of all sin, are you?

    
    

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